Twentieth century boys

This is just a minor rambling inspired by a recent thread on cll about the ups and downs of using Rails. What I find really overwhelming is the lack of proofs that other (typically Lisp-based) frameworks really have so much benefit over the established more traditional frameworks (e.g. Rails, Zope, plain PHP, ...). All I can see is starter documents, tutorials etc. that show how to program yet another blog or reddit clone in some particular framework. I miss fair comparisons and detailed discussions why and where exactly that one particular way of doing things has benefits. And especially with regard to those reddit clone prototypes: AFAICT, reddit was far beyond implementing some half-baked prototype (in Lisp) when they decided to switch (to Python). Yes, for demo purposes reinventing the wheel with some unround edges might be acceptable, but in reality only rolling wheels will be sold and this is where the challenge is.

I believe that while it's nice that frameworks help with implementing your 500 line application, they really need to show their value with large applications. Where is a discussion of a large on-line shopping system in, say, UCW and CL-SQL, with secure shopping over SSL, login handling, input validation, distribution over multiple servers etc.? Now, I'm not suggesting that UCW, Weblocks etc. can't be used to build such websites, but it would be nice to see a much more in-depth explanation/discussion/comparison of how to do it. That would also help increase the credibility of Lisp or at least, of lispers discussing (other) web frameworks.